How am I supposed to know what love feels like

I'm a 25yo gay bottom but I don't think it would matter if I was straight or younger or older. I have never had a romantic relationship, that is objectively untrue as I did have a boyfriend for abit but he dumped me because we never had sex. In my entire life I have never had any comprehension of what a relationship is.. like I've never seen it anywhere. While my parents were married I'm sure they loved each other if not at least cared for each other, but I never saw them go on dates, or show real "intense" affection to each other. When I was in middle school and highschool and confused about my sexual orientation and trying to make sense of all the schoolyard questions I got like "who do you have a crush on" or "are you gay? Or bi? Or pan?" And nothing really ever made sense, I watched my friends get into relationships but they weren't different to me.. like I just always thought that my friends were just preferring to hangout with their other friends more than me. And they did special things with each other that I wasn't a part of (like I can't argue with the fact that I'm not a part of them making out or having sex), it just always felt to me like something I was excluded from, like a recess game or some club.. I'm 25 and my brain stopped growing, I can feel it, I can feel that I don't change like I used to. I have absolutely no sense of what is romance or love or crushes. I don't know what it feels like. Right now I can't tell you the difference between my friend and my boyfriend. But it is different. When I was young I talked about sex so much that it became gross, I didn't know, I thought since that's what everybody was doing with everybody else all I had to do was join in. But I disgusted pretty much everybody who ever talked to me. So I shut up... I finally managed to shut up and then I got friends... Ok so not talking about sex is how I start relationships with people I guess, that's just the cause and effect that I observed. I thought I had to be special to them, I had to be special to every single one of my friends otherwise they'd detach from me and we never talk again. Everybody in my life just has someone more special to them than me. It used to be so normal for me to reach out to my friends and ask to hang out, or tell them about a new show I saw and wanted to watch it with them so we could talk about it. But I'd never get that, I'd usually get a "sorry I'm hanging out with my girlfriend at that time", or "I'm already watching that with my boyfriend". I used to have 3 friends in my life that were my everything. They always wanted to hang out with me, we've known each other since childhood, we grew and changed together so many times. We were a group. Then one day one of them whispered to me that the 3 of them were in a poly relationship with themselves and not me and I couldn't handle it. I snapped harder than I ever snapped. I was so angry and I felt betrayed and and I was so jealous that for 5 months their relationship was the only thing that occupied my thoughts, all my thoughts. About a month into that 5 months I confronted them and it was so intense and draining that I fell asleep intermittently while trying to talk to them. They pushed me out. I hate them.. I hate each one of them individually and all 3 of them collectively. One of them was my friend since elementary school... I never thought I could hate him, there's nothing he could possibly do to make me hate him, but now I do. I can never let it go, I can never have them back in my life because now I know that it's wrong to care and feel that strongly about people I've known my whole life. I got a therapist, I'm still with him today.. he helps me reason through my feelings and takes responsibility for things he tells me to do. It makes it easier for me to do the things he tells me to. We looked on gmap for something for me to do and discovered the only way bar within a reasonable distance from my house and he told me to go there so I did.. my second time there someone approached me and asked me something that nobody ever asked me, "do you like dates or just want to have fun". Nobody ever asked me this, every other gay guy I met on the apps just wanted to have sex with me. SIDEBAR: do you have any idea how hard it is to bottom?? Maybe not if you're a cisfemale but for gay guys it's not just something we can do whenever. We have to change our diets, we have a whole ritual we have to do otherwise it's not fun. And for me tbh it's not that easy for me to put things inside of me. When I do manage to it's a life changing but it just doesn't come naturally to me. So when this man shows up in front of me and asked me on a date I jumped on it, what other choice could I possibly have had??? In the 5 months we were together I think we only went in 2 real dates, like just the 2 of us going out to be with each other. Most of the time we'd just watch garbage TV and boring movies in his cold ass house with old pictures of his family and the faint vibe of small children running around. The only reason I thought it was different was because when I'd ask him when I could see him, he'd say something like "my shoulders are killing me" (justifiable, he had nerve damage due to an injury), or "sorry I got the kids this weekend" (not his kids he'd just babysit some of his neices and nephews), or he just be asleep. That was the only switch in my brain that made me take in what I thought was romance. I thought it was normal when he'd run around the bar talking to strangers that were actually loose mutual acquaintances. I thought it was normal to hang out with him and his family when we went out (and I actually like them more than him right now). I thought I had a boyfriend. But I never talked about sex with him.. I wanted to more than anything.. I just wanted to talk to someone about it and not receive laughs or jokes to alleviate what was an uncomfortable conversation to them but not me. He never wanted to talk about it, he just wanted whatever it was to come "naturally" like what the fuck does that even mean????????????? I told him I got to get ready, he told me all I had to do was change my diet and I could just do it whenever. I told him I was nervous, he thought that trusting him was all I needed to get past that. One time I undid my jeans button so I can cuddle on the couch with him and he just sort of reached down at me. Nobody ever has, everybody who I've ever tried "reaching" for pushed me away (justifiably because I was well out of bounds with my FRIENDS, I'm in the wrong I'm not arguing that) and it affected me. I've tried to loose my virginity 3 times in my life and every time it just ended with me having a panic attack and nothing happening.. I don't want to remember that my first time was a panic attack. He dumped me because he felt that I'd never be comfortable being sexual with him, he thought I wanted him to ACT a certain type of way (...like yeah I wanted you to ACT like my boyfriend and not like some rando at a bar, or a friend, fuck I don't even know what it means to ACT like my boyfriend but I know it's not the same as my friends act around me), he never wanted to take the things that mattered to me seriously, but I took his things seriously.. because they mattered to him, just like I do with all my friends, because that's the only thing I know how to do. I don't know what I could have done differently. Like within the entire set of all of my past experiences I had no information to make a better choice. My therapist finally convinced me that it wasn't my fault that he dumped me because even if we got past my insecurities I still have to get horny for his cold ass hands touching me under a painting of his great grandmother. I won't deny that I've said some stupid shit that soured his opinion of me. It's fine like it was never going to happen with him anyways. It just feels like it is wrong of me to want another person to be interested in my sexuality, not any sort of stereotypical image but the part of the "myself" that I'm always told to be (e.g "solve your problem by just being yourself"). I feel like it's wrong to share these problems with anyone and EVERYONE. I feel like the only (socially)LEGAL way for me to learn how to be a sexual person is by myself. Well what sense does that make? I've never been touched on my inner thigh my another person because no one has ever wanted to and when my ex tried I flinched... HARD. How am I expected to get used to how these things feel ALONE? If I had the entire harry potter room of requirement to myself for an infinite span of time what could I possibly do to learn this by myself?? I was never touched when I was young so the neural pathways that link "sexual touch" with 👍 litterally never formed. And now that I'm "not young" and my brain is pretty set with what it's supposed to be even WITHOUT those sensory stimuluses how am I supposed to acquire them? What app, or sex therapist, or where do I go? Who is it ok to ask for help from? Is it even ok to ask for help with THIS?? Is it even ok to talk about it with someone for free (I mean not paying them like I pay my therapist)? Or is it finally time to accept that it's just wrong for me to even want this and I should just move on and be asexual? I promise to answer any questions I'm asked as truthfully as I can while concealing my identity. There's no point in having a therapist if everything he knows about me is a lie just as there's no point posting lies ¯⁠⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯.

Thanks for your patience! Someone will respond soon, or I myself if it comes to that. It's only ever a case of By When, not If. Meanwhile, feel free to read the opening posts of the other (at the mo.) two visitors-in-waiting, and give your thoughts, invite them over to yours - or just say a sympathetic Hi. Don't be shy. :) (Same message to all of you, btw.)

Hi SOMERANDOMGAYGUY8467 (*fingers gasp for breath*), Mind if I call you Somer? ("No, I don't mind") ("Great - thanks", haha) "I'm a 25yo gay bottom but I don't think it would matter if I was straight or younger or older." No, course it doesn't. But people with no life or repressed anger and no-one to take it out on (like THAT'S somehow acceptable!), like to make an issue out of such things to put drama and distraction from their onuses and duties into their days (pathetic)....mental procrastination, basically (and usually narcissistic). But - theory of mine (based on my gay friends), especially the way it felt important to you to that everyone knew which role you were (we say Undie or Ovie, haha...sounds cuter). So, just out of interest (ignore if you don't want to say, or yet): Did you ever wonder whether you were actually a female born into a male's body and raised as a man, hence, fancy men, not women? Anyhoo.... "I have never had a romantic relationship, that is objectively untrue as I did have a boyfriend for abit but he dumped me because we never had sex." Then he wanted sex-on-tap where you wanted a relationship. GOOD FOR YOU for holding-out like the Crown Jewels (scuse pun)! And so you are! (Actions say so, innit.) Proud Stallion High Five! Well, you're special so you're waiting patiently for special. PS: so did I. "In my entire life I have never had any comprehension of what a relationship is.. like I've never seen it anywhere. While my parents were married I'm sure they loved each other if not at least cared for each other, but I never saw them go on dates, or show real "intense" affection to each other." So you see what was missing, then? ...in which case - yes you do have comprehension,...clearly DO. Do-BEE-Do, in fact! (Haha, ya 'nana.) Yeah? See it now? So it can't be that, then, can it... "When I was in middle school and highschool and confused about my sexual orientation and trying to make sense of all the schoolyard questions I got like "who do you have a crush on" or "are you gay? Or bi? Or pan?" Great...like you didn't have ENOUGH to get a handle on, on your plate. I'd have said (and frequently did back then): "Trunkie want a bun?" (using my forearm as my trunk, upper-arm against my nose/face, waving it around dramatically, and even producing the sound-effects if the person were especially pushy/naggy). Oooh, school memories.... (yuck). Since when did people believe they could pry into other people's most private, sensitive business? Maybe when you've known them for 5 plus years, or are dating them. Or when you decide to confide it. Me, I want to start a movement to reverse that boundary-barging...might even call it, Trunkieism...or Trunky-itis. (Feel free to fly with it for me. I'm getting leader/influencer vibes.) "And nothing really ever made sense, I watched my friends get into relationships but they weren't different to me.. like I just always thought that my friends were just preferring to hangout with their other friends more than me. And they did special things with each other that I wasn't a part of (like I can't argue with the fact that I'm not a part of them making out or having sex), it just always felt to me like something I was excluded from, like a recess game or some club.. " Well, that just means you weren't developmentally ready for it...mind too busy with more important things. Not all human pot-plants grow at the same rate or shape, even if the bulbs seemed identical. E.g. some kids learn to walk first, THEN talk; some vice-versa; some simultaneously. Just depends on how you're programmed and what takes priority at any given point in time. And like you say - you had an extra, whopping-great task that your peers DIDN'T, in your mental In-Tray...trying to work yourself out and then after that, your place in the world and with what type of people, etc... You certainly weren't ready to reproduce, hence, not being peer- or culture-pressurable (High Five again), you didn't force yourself to have sex prematurely just to be "cool" (yeah, for a sheep). Let me try to clarify and cement in place for you, what your hard-wired attitude is. Something like this: You are the first You that has ever existed or ever will exist; there will NEVER be another You in the however-dist-, actually, let's just say - for All Eternity. In that way, you are unique, a one-off. Damn right you're worth 'preserving' and keeping shiny. I only wish MORE people had your self-respect and self-patience. In a nutshell- you were busy dating YOURSELF. WHICH IS PRECISELY WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO. Dating-shmating...it's just playing Dressing-up Boxes until hit psychological sexual maturity. "I'm 25 and my brain stopped growing, I can feel it, I can feel that I don't change like I used to. I have absolutely no sense of what is romance or love or crushes. I don't know what it feels like. Right now I can't tell you the difference between my friend and my boyfriend. But it is different. " Well, if you put it like that: Maybe you know what was missing from your parents' marriage? They used to fancy each other but they didn't really like each other enough. So here you are, making your foray to Romanceville through the Friendship Door. That's actually a very intelligent way to do it. Like them first...like them more...find you can't stop thinking about them...realise you're falling in-love - and because you're in-love, find them a huge turn-on...THEN have sex! Which by then is FAR better quality. "When I was young I talked about sex so much that it became gross, I didn't know, I thought since that's what everybody was doing with everybody else all I had to do was join in. But I disgusted pretty much everybody who ever talked to me. So I shut up... I finally managed to shut up and then I got friends... Ok so not talking about sex is how I start relationships with people I guess, that's just the cause and effect that I observed." Cool! "I thought I had to be special to them, I had to be special to every single one of my friends otherwise they'd detach from me and we never talk again. Everybody in my life just has someone more special to them than me. It used to be so normal for me to reach out to my friends and ask to hang out, or tell them about a new show I saw and wanted to watch it with them so we could talk about it. But I'd never get that, I'd usually get a "sorry I'm hanging out with my girlfriend at that time", or "I'm already watching that with my boyfriend". You are special. So you don't NEED to try. TRYING to be special - ON TOP of BEING special (but not realising it), equals, Too Much. and that's what you proved. Well done! :) "I used to have 3 friends in my life that were my everything. They always wanted to hang out with me, we've known each other since childhood, we grew and changed together so many times. We were a group. Then one day one of them whispered to me that the 3 of them were in a poly relationship with themselves and not me and I couldn't handle it." Why? Did it occur to you that they're not as mature and emotionally intelligent as you so were playing Dressing-Up Boxes and didn't want Mr Adult-Sensible-Self-Respectful joining in (e.g. in case he deemed them ridiculous fakes)? "I snapped harder than I ever snapped. I was so angry and I felt betrayed and and I was so jealous that for 5 months their relationship was the only thing that occupied my thoughts, all my thoughts." I'm going to guess that, it upsetting you enough, it triggered your Pandora's Box to finally open, whereupon that issue-emotional flew out *and* everything banked-up, with it, meaning, you finally released but displaced your anger at your parents/shallow people/life generally onto your insensitive friends. "About a month into that 5 months I confronted them and it was so intense and draining that I fell asleep intermittently while trying to talk to them." Wow. That was some huge stress your parents' 'strange' marriage put you through. Were they a bit cool with you, as well? That would definitely have you craving a like-minded friend or posse, and a 'home'. You need to feel like you belong somewhere. Well, you do now, look! Hang-out here if you want to. Make this your blog (you can read yourself back and suddenly understand yourself more) while helping other people more like you. Fancy it? "They pushed me out. I hate them.." Me, too. (ONE, SINGLE, ISOLATED issue/outburst - CREATED/STARTED BY *THEM*, not you! - and you're Out? Nnnnnnice people. NOOOOOOT. How very dare you for working right and having intelligence thus sensitivity (both ways, clearly). You work right. They don't. You show them RIGHT up as the stunted school kids they still are, REGARDLESS of their desperate attempts to demonstrate the distinct opposite! GET IT NOW? You're special, you work beautifully, you present the contrast that brings their inadequacies and failures into very sharp relief. You're special. Hold out of Special. Okay? Nothing is wrong here, you have simply followed your incredible self-assurance and cut out the DEADWOOD. And now you have properly/ACTUALLY vacant seats in your office, meaning, it's just a matter of time until people looking for a position start to apply (in response to your "I'm Available" vibe). WELL. *DONE* You are so cool. I really rate you already. They weren't fit to look at your boots, let alone polish them! You're about to launch/bloom now. You watch. :) Growth-spurt. Which isn't possible with heavy monkeys on your back. "I hate each one of them individually and all 3 of them collectively." Yup, me too. "One of them was my friend since elementary school... I never thought I could hate him, there's nothing he could possibly do to make me hate him, but now I do." ((((((((((((((((((PARENTAL HUG)))))))))))))))))))))))) And - GOOD! It'll fade but it's great that you're getting the toxins out (which is what makes it fade). Give them truer nicknames, based on their real first-names, go on. It's soooo cathartic, speeds your grieving RIGHT up. "I can never let it go, I can never have them back in my life because now I know that it's wrong to care and feel that strongly about people I've known my whole life." Say this 20 times- I'm serious: RIGHT QUALITIES (Yours) (Fab, actually) OH-SO-WRONG RECIPIENTS! What a pile of See You Next Tuesdays. I don't normally use that word. But on this occasion it fits. Feckit, have another one: (((((((((((((((((((HUG)))))))))))))))))))))) "I got a therapist," :) "I'm still with him today.. he helps me reason through my feelings and takes responsibility for things he tells me to do." Excellent. " It makes it easier for me to do the things he tells me to." You're very lucky to have found a therapist with the rare self-confidence and -assurance to be Prescriptive. "We looked on gmap for something for me to do and discovered the only way bar within a reasonable distance from my house and he told me to go there so I did.. my second time there someone approached me and asked me something that nobody ever asked me, "do you like dates or just want to have fun". Nobody ever asked me this, every other gay guy I met on the apps just wanted to have sex with me." Ah - you're ahead of me already! Wonderful! And look....monkeys off your back, vibes now free of detritus (poo, basically), vibing like an Ambi-Pur = Special attracts Special - tadaaaa! FYI, because it's obvious that your crux problem is you were deprived of enough parental feedback - you have a unique Charisma. You'll go far now. And you're VERY brave, woooaaah. I wonder if you (and your truthful mouth) made your parents feel inadequate? Do you think they might have been over-guarded, over-self-protective Covert narcissistic, even just a touch? Were they like the parents in that brilliant kids' book, "Not now, Bernard"? "SIDEBAR: do you have any idea how hard it is to bottom?? Maybe not if you're a cisfemale but for gay guys it's not just something we can do whenever. We have to change our diets, we have a whole ritual we have to do otherwise it's not fun. And for me tbh it's not that easy for me to put things inside of me. When I do manage to it's a life changing but it just doesn't come naturally to me. " I don't even know what a cisfemale is. I don't CARE enough. There's too much of a fine line between genders...all feotuses are female until the third Trimester - or why do you think men have useless nipples? There's someones for everyones out there. I don't even like watching characters on telly 'having' sex. I'm like - Why would anyone want to watch two complete strangers whom they probably don't even fancy, being sexually-intimate with one another? What-ah?! I react like I would if it were two people in the same room as me for-real, I get up and walk off or change the channel ("Yeah, no thanks"). You call it prudey (although I'm otherwise a goer), but I just call it Self-Respectful and Dignified. Plus, I don't want any of that issue-ridden nonsense infecting MY one-and-only, precious brain, thanks. (Is that anything like you how feel?) "So when this man shows up in front of me and asked me on a date I jumped on it, what other choice could I possibly have had???" Ah. Yeah, well...that's the trouble if you're starving and someone offers you an open buffet. You're not going to amble up to it, are you, you're going to throw yourself. Conclusion: Not Quite Healed then Ripe, but nearly. That's the DOWNSIDE of being so tall, sturdy and special. You get those who fake being on your level, attract weaklings and users, applying...and then disappointing and disillusioning you. It's like the Lucky Dip....especially your stage-group.... dipping your hand into the barrel of sawdust, grabbing something, pulling it up, and going - plastic crap - chuck - hand back in again.... "Feels interesting?....Nope!...Neeeext!". That's a 20s Love-Life. Great...(, doesn't it). Trust me - making good friends is a FAR more satisying and cosy way to go. Plus friends have friends, and like to matchmake their single friends. "In the 5 months we were together I think we only went in 2 real dates, like just the 2 of us going out to be with each other." A Crumb-Thrower. Like your parents? Starting with your dad? Bit cold....emotionally unavailable...hard to pin down....constantly moving the goalposts...flakey, even...but expects YOU to be and give your best to THEM at all times?...like those horrid friends? Meme: Narcissists expect you to give up Everything to be their Nothing. Like that? Meme: Narcissists want you to believe that your REACTION to their abuse is the problem, rather than the abuse itself. And that? " Most of the time we'd just watch garbage TV and boring movies in his cold ass house with old pictures of his family and the faint vibe of small children running around. The only reason I thought it was different was because when I'd ask him when I could see him, he'd say something like "my shoulders are killing me" (justifiable, he had nerve damage due to an injury), or "sorry I got the kids this weekend" (not his kids he'd just babysit some of his neices and nephews), or he just be asleep." Well, HE was clearly in emotional hospital, legs in traction. So why was he dating when he was temporarily not qualified to? Did he think you'd be his cure-all panacea? No. You're not proactive in relationships, you're responsive. (Everywhere else you're proactive. Very.) They want special? In future they're going to have to prove it by treating YOU special. "That was the only switch in my brain that made me take in what I thought was romance. I thought it was normal when he'd run around the bar talking to strangers that were actually loose mutual acquaintances." Er - NO. "I thought it was normal to hang out with him and his family when we went out (and I actually like them more than him right now)." No, and No. "I thought I had a boyfriend." You had a selfish, self-centred, (hopefully only temporary) parasite. Narcissistic : Injured ....thus self-focused, can't heal = permanent.....round, down, round, down...down the plughole. Non-Narcissistic but injured: similar to a narcissist but healthy so capable of healing and does heal. Then soars. "But I never talked about sex with him.. I wanted to more than anything.." If you'd really wanted to or felt it was a good idea, the action would have been allowed to be released. So, no - you didn't. Animal URGE did. You didn't. Bit of a tug-o-war....You won. ;) ___________________________________ Do not take this badly, but, I have to pause this for a few hours and finish later, or failing that, tomorrow, but I definitely want to tonight, so - bear with. I thought it was better to provide you even a slightly foreshortened reply than make you have to wait some more, but I'm as 'long-winded' as you so I've run out of time for the mo, that's all. (Arnie voice) I'll bee Bach. :)

Just quickly - forgot to add: "Well, if you put it like that: Maybe you know what was missing from your parents' marriage? They used to fancy each other but they didn't really like each other enough. So here you are, making your foray to Romanceville through the Friendship Door. That's actually a very intelligent way to do it. Like them first...like them more...find you can't stop thinking about them...realise you're falling in-love - and because you're in-love, find them a huge turn-on...THEN have sex! Which by then is FAR better quality." ...AND *MEANS* SOMETHING.

And, oh, lookie here (sorry, I'm posting in between rushing around): "" It makes it easier for me to do the things he tells me to." You're very lucky to have found a therapist with the rare self-confidence and -assurance to be Prescriptive." Special (you) Attracted and got Accepted AND given Special Service by Special (therapist). Ta-daaa! Won't be long NOOOOOW? Laters!

Hey moderator, thanks for the deep response. I never expected someone to reply to me paragraph by paragraph (like I do). It's really cool to see someone else basically parrot everything that my therapist tells me, like hearing it from you makes it feel so much more obvious. To be honest I was really looking for help with my sensory issues, I thought all those details were important to help explain what I've been going through. But I guess the question doesn't make any sense. Like there's no definite way to ask for this kind of help or like there's no "virginity clinic" where you can meet up with a "professional cherry-popper" that understands what this means to me and helps me either set things up or get me past some of my issues...... There was this one porno I saw which is literally my entire fantasy about how I want to loose my virginity, this doctor had this boy on stirrups and they had this whole scripted conversation that really resonated with me and then the doctor did him like I want to be that think so bad just without the camera.. There's just no such thing as that, there's really no way to solve this issue............ I'm fairly ready to give up on all of it.

End of Intermission... "I just wanted to talk to someone about it and not receive laughs or jokes to alleviate what was an uncomfortable conversation to them but not me." Perfectly understandable. You're not doing it to be pervy, you're trying to write your own User Manual as you go/explore. Which is the correct and intelligent thing to do because the older you get, the more you need to know, like, enjoy solitude with, and trust yourself. You're an Only child, yes? Poor you. You must feel ilke you've lived your whole life so-far without having had a reliable handrail, let alone a clear path and direction. Sorry- must have FELT. Because that's going to change now, especially as you've found a substitute Dad (therapist...he sounds wonderful - sounds like he thinks the same about you, as well...going the extra mileZ-plural for you. Sounds like just the kind of dad-figure you need.) "He never wanted to talk about it, he just wanted whatever it was to come "naturally" like what the fuck does that even mean?????????????" "Ooh! Ooh! I know, Sir!" (shoots arms up)...It means, I can't act to-order cos I don't wanna, it's not in My-My-MY interests - I refuse to be told what to do by anyone, anyway. It means, Shut the hell up, trying to question me about what playingcards I'm holding to see through me and get me to change a situation that 100% suits Me-Me-Me, just because it doesn't suit you and makes you miserable - who CARES what you want/need! You should be grateful you HAVE Fantastic, Godlike Me-Me-Me (cuckoo!) 'in' (cuckoo!) your life!". All done sooo subtly and round-the-houses-y. Loads come out with that one - in fact, all of them, I think? ...Coverts or NSpaths still mainly in Covert mode, I mean..."I can't do it now you've said it", for example. So, again, it's: No...I WON'T do it now you've said it and would never have come clean and put my cards on the table even if you hadn't because this is MY show, I am the star, and the world owes me, including you!". NOTHING came naturally - least of all him! (scuse pun) THAT WAS THE WHOLE PROBLEM (go google for the old rhyme, "There's a Hole in my Bucket, Dear Liza, Dear Liza". Typical Covert-Narc evasion of being asked to (scuse pun again) fill you in on what the heck he thought he thought he was playing at because it CERTAINLY was not a Romantic Relationship. Talking to everyone but you in the bar....Good God! Yeah, making out you're NOT a boyfriend, just his casual FRIEND. See it? Because a boyfriend (espec a healthy-minded, sane one) knows you don't do that...take your lover on a date and then abandon them to other (note this) LESS IMPORTANT PEOPLE. That was a BOGOF (one action for the price of three). It was also to make you feel like you DIDN'T MATTER, are NOT IMPORTANT...maybe even BORING (it's all bs). Another: anyone who found you attractive, physically/chemistry and vibe-wise would think again about approaching you...because obviously, Loser-User here was giving the overtly strong impression that, as company, you were as boring as uck and someone you'd want to use any excuse to GET AWAY FROM. Plus you're being insulted so aren't wearing your normal alluring Contented/Happy & Confident Face, which ruins your allure. (E.g. they'll upset you by creating a fight and making like they're thinking of dumping you or whatever, the night before your holiday abroad with friends....so that no blokes will want to approach (and end up as makeshift, armchair therapist as you, the victim, can't help but go on and on about What's Up With S.O. See how they do it? LOADS of other ways, as well, that they spoil special/important occasions, including nights-out...but the Coverts will make YOU put all potential competitors for your affection off like I've just described. His type are constant - and I do mean constant - Machinators...Machievellis. They don't want a relationship (they can't bond, doesn't work), they want a human tool...prop.... out-of-their-league giving them 5 Star service and free perks (like a thoughtful chocolate on their hotel pillow), and getting to mimic and borrow your Good Stuff by-association...and emotionally hobble you so you can't ever escape. Neglect is just COOL or COLD abuse, as opposed to hot (the Narc Rage, aka Mantrum). Coverts (and this one sounds straight/classic, not Vulnerable) are normally really mean and crumb-throwing with their money as well....or just throw money at everything and everyone (if they've managed to wrangle themselves a good job), when what everyone WANTS is normal love, affection, time, attention, .....RECIPROCATION of what YOU bring to the table. Take-Take-Taker seeks Give-Give-Giver. (That's just 2 plus 2 equals 4, right? Am I opening up sleeping neural pathways in your bonce yet?). Now let's KEEP you on this track of thinking: He was trying to strip your confidence so that you would cease getting EYED-UP. (You might have spotted it and GROWN in confidence and Der Giant Controller can't have THAT?! You're HIS!...to do whatever he wants, even if you don't want it....so they act up like that so that you're too obsessed with THEM and what THEY'RE doing/failing to do!) You were *undoubtedly* (cos this is how it works and why they do that sort of shoddy crap) attracting other male (AND possibly female) attention. Or JUST ANY attention...notice the room turning to LOOK at you or steal glances throughout the night...for your refreshingly different vibe. If what I'm saying weren't true, he wouldn't have chosen that precise "Old Chestnut" of a Narc move method from (you betcha) his extentive menu of tried-n-tested, emotionally-manipulating moves. ALSO....with an NSpath (google "Narcissistic-Sociopathic Harem"), you're just the main spinning-plate-on-a-pole they're keeping in play (keeping dizzy) so undoubtedly a lot of those regulars in the bar were harem-members or members-in-waiting and needed a quick spin as well. ALSO... You are NOT Not Gorgeous Enough, laddie, if anything you are TOO Gorgeous, TOO Loveable. If you have a big heart/big empathy, you are TOP OF THE TREE. *Fact*. The world couldn't even WORK without Empaths! We'd have died out as a specie by now! Victims are chosen for their honest, natural, lovely-'smelling' vibes as advertise (think fast-food cookie shop/booth or bakers, wafting the smell into the street) the even lovelier smell within. No. 1 - Huge Heart, Intelligent, Understanding (which they self-conveniently, self-deludingly call, a Sap - HAH!). Meme (not verbatim - there are variations): Despite you're supposed to be their Significant Other - Narcs treat everyone better than you. (The Coverts - when no-one is there to witness it.) "I told him I got to get ready, he told me all I had to do was change my diet and I could just do it whenever. I told him I was nervous, he thought that trusting him was all I needed to get past that." Who died and made HIM Freud? TICK!/RED FLAG. "Oh, you should just trust me" or, effectively, hurry up and ignore your misgivings, and just trust me despite this...and this...and that...and this, shoddy, miserly attitude and treatment. (No, pal. HOW'S ABOUT ACTING TRUSTWORTHY?.*..duuuuuuh.) (-to him) Allegedly, he can't add 1+1=2. (That's the other thing they are - ucking obtuse...and facetious...and hair-splitting...and disingenuous...ANYTHING you stop you working out where you stand/what's going on and fortifying your boundaries or dumping). ..."Just trust me". Er - NO? So WHAT if you're "IN-" love with me? - truth is, I hardly KNOW you! It's trying to make you feel wrong for not going against your instincts to wait and SEE if the person's consistently, LONG-term proven they're trustworthy or not, for something that demands trust to that degree. Yet another version of 'Shut up, I don't care about your feelings, I'm NOT INTERESTED'. The sneaky way. YOU have to de-code and fill in the gaps, see. ALL the bloody time. They make you work too hard ('Narcs expect you to give up everything to be their nothing'). But, yeah, that Bar thing atop all that you reported before it (and your own thinking and behaviour as the Narc's victim, obvs) - he's definitely another bloody NSpath parasite/human-prop-grabber/conner. So now it's just about yet more confirmation and validation (for you)... I've had that sh*t tried on me. I'd get up and leave without him. Or I'd start chatting to someone else(s), just friendlily, and get invited to join their table...and then just blank him if he came up (you find they suddenly remember you and come running over like Speedy Gonzalez to protect their Golden Goose. You'll know to immediately 'Not Have It!' if that happens again, won't you, rather than continue sitting there, not having any experiential frame-of-reference for knowing what it was and thereby how to deal with it. Haha, another memory just popped in... quietly and discreetly (I was what - 21?) told said bar-frog (when he'd behaved just the same as yours...they're all basically the same and do the same damn things, remember?), at the bar, that I didn't wish to go out with him anymore and was leaving, have a good life. His response was to LOUDLY try to humiliate me. It was utter nonsense and lies that did not describe me one bit - and was Word Salady - so for that reason, it never stuck in my memory just WHAT he said, but it must have been to do with sex because I came just as loudly back with, 'I *would* tell you that I'd faked it every time...But you have to be awake for that'. The other customers snorted and giggled so - that (public humiliation (never mind that THEY'VE just done it - you're not allowed!) (wanna bet?); people laughing (his perception) AT him (though I think they were) would have been enough to have put him inwardly into Narc Rage AND DID....reports later of his having started a fisty-cuffs with one of the other regulars and getting BANNED...........oh no!...all that hard (easy!) work plate-spinning for nothing!....no back-up Supply to like-lightning plonk in your spot before it even goes cold (they CANNOT be alone), oh, noooooo... (It wasn't for my ego first and foremost, it was s to leave them out-of-action for long enough that other victims-in-waiting (psychologically chained in the dungeon) or would-be victims can wake up via the shock and jolt of getting to see under the Mask, and in future give him a VERY wide berth.) You can borrow that one. ;) "One time I undid my jeans button so I can cuddle on the couch with him and he just sort of reached down at me. Nobody ever has, everybody who I've ever tried "reaching" for pushed me away (justifiably because I was well out of bounds with my FRIENDS, I'm in the wrong I'm not arguing that) and it affected me. I've tried to loose my virginity 3 times in my life and every time it just ended with me having a panic attack and nothing happening.." I don't agree you ARE trying to lose your virginity...think it would just be a bonus AND a Discount Card for getting close quickly (because you've been starved for so long). I think you're trying to find someone with whom to make a strong mental-emotional connection - a first of your future Posse of likemindeds, but, as I said - going through the Sex Door. There are too many sexual/social predators that hang around that lobby area these days so, switch to the Friendship door. You're special and unconventional and with a big heart, equals refreshing. "I don't want to remember that my first time was a panic attack. He dumped me because he felt that I'd never be comfortable being sexual with him, he thought I wanted him to ACT a certain type of way (...like yeah I wanted you to ACT like my boyfriend and not like some rando at a bar, or a friend, " SNAP! (I don't read ahead!) And we're not BOTH wrong, eh. (He's too transparent anyway with no Rose-Tinted glasses on.) "...fuck I don't even know what it means to ACT like my boyfriend but I know it's not the same as my friends act around me), he never wanted to take the things that mattered to me seriously, but I took his things seriously.. because they mattered to him, just like I do with all my friends, because that's the only thing I know how to do." Course you did. There ain't nothing wrong with YOUR pairbonding programme! You're just a niche market, that's all. "I don't know what I could have done differently." Nothing. " Like within the entire set of all of my past experiences I had no information to make a better choice. My therapist finally convinced me that it wasn't my fault that he dumped me because even if we got past my insecurities I still have to get horny for his cold ass hands touching me under a painting of his great grandmother." EW! WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?! EW! OMG... What - SERIOUSLY????? Has this guy got ANY lines - aside from blurred ones? (NSpath - middle name Highly Inappropriate all the way to Downright Bizarre.) Mind you, he could just be a Covert starting to metamorphose into a Spath. Straight Coverts don't actually like sex (they're too superior ...and have indelible issues, of course). So with that the case, of course it wouldn't put he himself off like you'd think it would. Equally, it would put any partner off. I mean, that's tantamount to having his parent sat in the corner of the room, watching you both! OMG, this guy is WELL iffy! In fact - odd. Could be a loner-type psycho, then. Fake-Sociable only when hunting victims down. Using you, as I say, as Window Shopping to lure other customers in...the Mask of Sanity as well as Respectability. "I won't deny that I've said some stupid shit that soured his opinion of me. It's fine like it was never going to happen with him anyways." Google "Narc Victim - Reactive Abuse". Or go see....who's thread did I put it on... Found it!.. ********************************************************* https://www.charliehealth.com/post/what-is-reactive-abuse ********************************************************* What you and other victim-survivors are saying there is basically this: He hit me (with weirdness and over-frustration) and, I'm ashamed to say, when I screamed in agony I accidentally burst his eardrum. Response: GOOD! I hope his ear fell off! (He's probably got a spare.....Frankenstein, haha. Or the one The Adams Family were ashamed of and kept hidden, hence you never got to see...) "It just feels like it is wrong of me to want another person to be interested in my sexuality," Nope. "not any sort of stereotypical image but the part of the "myself" that I'm always told to be (e.g "solve your problem by just being yourself"). I feel like it's wrong to share these problems with anyone and EVERYONE." Let them ask first? And then see if it feels right to disclose it? But, yes, generally new lovers-to-be do discuss that sort of thing (the first dates are the mutual Interview stage) once they've established they fancy one another. "I feel like the only (socially)LEGAL way for me to learn how to be a sexual person is by myself. Well what sense does that make? I've never been touched on my inner thigh my another person because no one has ever wanted to and when my ex tried I flinched... HARD." There you go! That's better-put proof that it's NOT sex-first, or even alongside, you want, it's a special someone or best friend first. "How am I expected to get used to how these things feel ALONE? If I had the entire harry potter room of requirement to myself for an infinite span of time what could I possibly do to learn this by myself??" Well, actually, it IS useful to get to know your body and what you like/don't like before you enter a relationship. It does up your confidence. "I was never touched when I was young so the neural pathways that link "sexual touch" with 👍 litterally never formed." Link sexual touch with what?? "And now that I'm "not young" and my brain is pretty set with what it's supposed to be even WITHOUT those sensory stimuluses how am I supposed to acquire them? What app, or sex therapist, or where do I go?" If you want a sex therapist - your doctor/GP. "Who is it ok to ask for help from?" Ditto. "Is it even ok to ask for help with THIS??" Yes, course. "Is it even ok to talk about it with someone for free (I mean not paying them like I pay my therapist)?" Yes - again, your GP". Or is it finally time to accept that it's just wrong for me to even want this and I should just move on and be asexual?" Naaaah. You're just in a hurry because you've got issues not your own been dumped onto you, making everything feel too hard and complicated. Right - read this. That's where YOU'RE headed: Successville. But to get there, you need to do your homework (on your parents AND THEREBY the comfort-zone occupants you either aimed for automatically OR aimed themselves at you: https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/13611/jealous-of-best-friend#jumptobottom Last 3 posts and THEN read from the beginning. :) "I promise to answer any questions I'm asked as truthfully as I can while concealing my identity. There's no point in having a therapist if everything he knows about me is a lie just as there's no point posting lies ¯⁠⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯." Me, I would ask this private therapist. I understand if it's a case of not wanting to 'put him off' but even if that's not his area, I'm sure he would help you to find one - probably via some charity. What country are you in?

I see you've done a second post so I'll read and respond to that tomorrow either daytime or eve (got myself ALMOST a day off). Hasta manana!

PS: I'm seeing similarities in you and WT51 btw. Hence posting her link. Is it just me or do you think so too?

Hey again! 2nd post: "Hey moderator, thanks for the deep response. I never expected someone to reply to me paragraph by paragraph (like I do)." Ahh, you're very sweet to say so. I just talk to 'you' and type it out as I go. Stream of Consciousness. I don't need to edit - I'm clean. Bar burps and hiccups ob-HIC!-viously (uuurp!) haha. "It's really cool to see someone else basically parrot everything that my therapist tells me, like hearing it from you makes it feel so much more obvious. " And that is PRECISELY WHYYYYY ...(drumroll)...a kid needs TWO parents. A second opinion, completely independent from the first, *innit*, which is stronger and more reassuring than one, as per the saying - We can't BOTH be wrong?! "To be honest I was really looking for help with my sensory issues, I thought all those details were important to help explain what I've been going through. But I guess the question doesn't make any sense. Like there's no definite way to ask for this kind of help or like there's no "virginity clinic" where you can meet up with a "professional cherry-popper" that understands what this means to me and helps me either set things up or get me past some of my issues...... There was this one porno I saw which is literally my entire fantasy about how I want to loose my virginity, this doctor had this boy on stirrups and they had this whole scripted conversation that really resonated with me and then the doctor did him like I want to be that think so bad just without the camera.. " Yeah, you see, there's another hint at my theory that you identify more on that score as a woman.. being the Done To rather than Do To. But I repeat, you're not actually after, first and foremost, losing your virginity, nor getting to have sex LIKE a long-running, mutually very trusting couple. I suspect you're thinking of it as a short-cut. But it's not. You end up with other people who are in a hurry - and that element, already, blocks your chances of finding someone with a heart, self-respect, other-respect, etc. Healthy. "There's just no such thing as that, there's really no way to solve this issue............ I'm fairly ready to give up on all of it." Refer to, asking your therapist to help you, e.g. writing a letter for you to take to your doctor to get referred under your health system (do you have one?), or to contact a charity. You might just have reversible numbness, which is common after chronic abuse/neglect (because even drip-drips collect over time and then hit critical). Let me see what I've got in my archives about that...might help... Rhonda Freeman is brill because she's been through Narc nonsense herself (and you cannot beat living through it) and has close associations with the other, longer-running, not exclusively web-based experts... Bear with...

PS: Call me SM or Smatey (or Marmite haha) or one of your own. :) Oh, and Somer is pronounced Summer.

Heya, sorry for the going AWOL - I've been sans internet; it went off literally 5 mins after I left your thread to go searching and surfing (and I still bloody don't know why!....Spain is NOT a First-World country, it's like Third with First-World sprinkles, let me tell you that RIGHT now). I've been going MENTAL! Anyhoo - have a read through the below website article extract. And bear with it to the end (where, marked in asterisks, I **suspect applies to you), as the 'preamble' gives you the basis to better understand. (It goes on from there about how to rebuild trust.) **from these clues and more - ""I've tried to loose my virginity 3 times in my life and every time it just ended with me having a panic attack and nothing happening.." + "I don't want to remember that my first time was a panic attack. He dumped me because he felt that I'd never be comfortable being sexual with him, he thought I wanted him to ACT a certain type of way (...like yeah I wanted you to ACT like my boyfriend and not like some rando at a bar, or ((even just like)) a friend, " + "I feel like the only (socially)LEGAL way for me to learn how to be a sexual person is by myself. Well what sense does that make? I've never been touched on my inner thigh my another person because no one has ever wanted to and when my ex tried I flinched... HARD."" - you were bound to have had (Complex)PSTD after-effects with almost 2 decades with two (presumably, only emotionally?) neglectful parents, but, whether you relate to the below, is for you to say; plus, I repeat, it's conquerable/recoverable from, once you understand *exactly what, how and why* happened (or just as much in your case - failed to happen) to you. Being touched is something you NEED but (because you're still reacting to your childhood, including the dissatisfactory relationships/partners you've ("AGAIN!") settled for) don't WANT - because that way lies bonding "AGAIN!" and then being open to crushing hurt and disappointment "AGAIN!" as a feature of everyday life...and you're aware on some level, that 'your heart lives in your knickers', meaning, sex would pretty-much instantly bond you to the other person...which would put you back in said Precarious/Danger Spot... (Just common sense, really, isn't it.) And you've had E....NOUGH. Haven't you. ...which is VERY positive news because, reaching that point - for an empath with vast love, patience, understand, endurance - is the hard part. :) It can take people ucking decades - or never! (Insert Beyonce's "Survivor") PS: What age were you when you realised your parents were (again, presumably) 'cold fish'? And what age do you think did it start or were things always like that and it was your normal until you got to compare with other kids' parents/families? Here we go then... and, again, tell me whether and how this chimed and affected you. ___________________________________________________________ https://manhattancbt.com/sex-ptsd Can PTSD Affect Your Sex Life? Dr Paul Green Many people who suffer from PTSD find that the condition can affect their sex lives, sometimes for years. Fortunately, there is help for this problem. After experiencing a traumatic event, some people develop post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The types of events that can cause PTSD include accidents, sexual or physical assaults or abuse, natural disasters, combat, terror attacks, and other events. The condition can last for years and can be quite impactful for the person suffering from it and for their families. RELATED PODCAST: What, Exactly, Is Trauma? Sex and PTSD PTSD’s effect on sex is influenced by whether the traumatic event was sexual in nature. For survivors of sexual assault, sex — even in the context of a committed relationship — can be triggering. PTSD from Rape That Occurred As an Adult Whether the sexual assault or abuse was committed by a male, female, romantic partner, acquaintance, or stranger, PTSD can make sex a profoundly negative emotional experience. In order to avoid unwanted feelings, someone with PTSD will often steer clear of certain sexual acts or situations or will avoid sex altogether. Of course, this can impact romantic relationships significantly. Those with PTSD from a sexual assault or sexual abuse sometimes assume that “this is just what sex is like for me now,” and try to adapt. This is certainly understandable. However, it doesn’t take into account how effective treatment for PTSD can be — more on that below. If You Have PTSD From Rape or Abuse During Childhood or Adolescence For those who have PTSD following sexual abuse or assault that happened in childhood, the picture is a little different. All of the above-described difficulties people face after a sexual assault in adulthood still apply. In addition, the person with PTSD may have other emotional difficulties that affect close relationships. For people who experience multiple episodes of childhood sexual abuse, the type of PTSD they experience is sometimes called complex PTSD (learn more about complex vs. regular PTSD), or cPTSD. cPTSD often involves difficulty with intense emotions, negative beliefs about the self, or emotional numbing — in addition to the other symptoms of PTSD. Dissociation during sex Dissociation is a PTSD symptom that is essentially a change in consciousness. Things can start to seem unreal or dreamlike (this is called derealization). Or, perhaps more common during sex, you can feel detached from your body as if you were observing yourself from outside (depersonalization). Not everyone with PTSD has these symptoms, but for survivors of sexual assault, it’s not uncommon to experience dissociation during sex. *********************************************************** What It Looks Like If Your PTSD Is Not From a Sexual Trauma You might think that someone suffering from PTSD following a non-sexual traumatic event would have no problems with sexual functioning. However, that’s ***often*** untrue. Often they have difficulties due to ***PTSD’s effect on the nervous system***. The following PTSD symptoms are often a sign of overactivity in the sympathetic nervous system: exaggerated startle response ***panic attacks*** feeling constantly on-guard The sympathetic nervous system is what’s responsible for our body’s fight-or-flight response. In PTSD, ***our body becomes quicker to activate the sympathetic nervous system in response to anything that seems like a threat***. Furthermore, anything that reminds us of the traumatic event can trigger the fight-or-flight response. When this happens, our blood vessels constrict and our blood pressure goes up, among other changes. Sexual arousal (especially for men; women’s arousal is more complex) requires the opposite of these physical changes. So for these physiological reasons, PTSD even from non-sexual traumas can affect your sex life. *********************************************************** Roger - Over? PS: Out of keen interest, roughly how old is your counsellor?

PPS: So - there ya go? - Y'ER NORMAL. Just Unconventional. (Join the club!) :)

And PPPS: "I'm 25 and my brain stopped growing, I can feel it," Yours hasn't. Most of it has. But not this issue...for the simple reason that it couldn't get near the top of your emotional In-Tray at the point where it was next to be dealt with...too many emotional reams about ADULT crap dumped in there (their unspoken, acted-out or even AMBIENT issues, layered onto you...well, only your surface, thank god). You've been trying to grow sexually when you were denied the relevant 'Baby Bio'. It's like a traumatised thus commitmentphobic person being made to prove they can keep a pot-plant alive and thriving before they're qualified to do the next step of getting a pet......then making a firm friend......and THEN a romantic-sexual relationship. Romances where you only really fancy them, go splat too quickly. You've got to LIKE them - more than you fancy them, ideally (in case they end up in a wheelchair, incapable that way, say). Friend AND Lover. The basis for that level of relationship (the closest, most intimate there is, bar ones own children) is ready-and-waiting, as a newborn, for one's parents to draw and encourage out in you. It hasn't GONE anywhere. It's just been semi-redundant. You just need some friends and for one of those to evolve into a BEST friendship... and then everything snowballs positively from there. It's not a mountain, though. It's just a long-ish walk. Ultimately, you revealed that anyway because, look: "I don't want to remember that my first time was a panic attack. He dumped me because he felt that I'd never be comfortable being sexual with him, he thought I wanted him to ACT a certain type of way (...like yeah I wanted you to ACT like my boyfriend and not like some rando at a bar, or a friend, " We had (no offence, just to illustrate) - yadder-yadder-yadder-yadder.......saved the best til last........ friend. You want a friend. A proper one. I can sense that know instinctively that it'll naturally lead - as they logically do - to romance....maybe even the love of your life....which gives you AMPLE time to read-up on where you've BEEN all your life. And why (and how).....and how it's ZERO reflection on you/any kid if your particular lottery ticket gave you a bit or a lot of a Booby Prize x 2. Probably somebody up there wanted you to have a particularly challenging obstacle course, growing-up. Must have something important in-mind (in the future) for you and 'your perfect storm' (something unconventional?) that, un-pumped this hard (with a good decompression and recovery period afterwards...which you've just entered), you'd have had little chance of being able to handle had you been the same as everyone else. A career or vocation that too few could do, then? What's your job, btw? Are you lucky enough to be employed yet?

BTW - this is so cool and cute: ¯⁠⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯ Did you 'compose' that yourself? Got any more?

Maybe it was a mistake writing all of that. I guess that's my biggest problem is that when I ask someone for help and I give them all the information they might need to help me (if they want too) y'all end up getting distracted like crazy. Maybe my therapist is also really distracted...... maybe I was right all along. The only reason I was excited and desired having a boyfriend is because I understood that's the only LEGAL way to beable to talk to someone about sex. It's ILLEGAL to ask strangers or friends about these kinds of things. Love doesn't make sense to me. I think about everyone in my life constantly and I grow attached to everyone so I'm not really missing "love". It's just these boundries that everyone in the world has used to box me into a pocket dimention where I exist alone. It's ok for everyone else and it's wrong for me. I am not ALLOWED to know why. I just have to be in this jail and accept that it's because I did something wrong. Even if that wrong and I can date and work on a relationship with a "friend" or "boyfriend" or someone, that same person can get sex whenever they want from litterally everyone else. And I'm not ok with an open relationship where my "boyfriend" has other partners that I don't know, frankly I don't think I've ever been ok with my friends having other friends, for the most part I feel like I'm all of my friends only friend and I know that's just incorrect. I don't know just everything about myself and everything I've ever done just makes me angry. I'm sick of being who I am, I'm sick of how I feel about others, I'm sick of wanting and being told no, I'm sick of being punished, I'm sick of all of it. This didn't help...

Will read and reply tomorrow, Somer (internet probs)!